I'm making a paint program, so useful tools, ideas and features required please

[happymonster]

I'm making progress on adding user brush support.

I've added 8 brush preview thumbnails underneath the brush shapes and slider in the Brush Options panel. I was wondering whether I should put it to the right of the layers at th top of the screen, but conceptually it makes more sense to have it next to the normal brush presets & shape/size controls.

The preview is a quick pixel resize for now. I will look to improve this later, but it's not too bad now.

You can currently copy an image and have the preview update, although you can't use the brush for drawing yet. I'm going to need to change the cursor/brush code for the user-brushes. SIGH! It's all a lot of work..

[happymonster]

Things are still progressing.. even if this thread has gone quiet!

[Conceit]

that pixel resize preview thing doesnt sound bad to me at all, after all it's just a brush! unless there's some internal programing problem with it I dont see why u should worry about that...

[happymonster]

I'd just like it to look better in the future.

[happymonster]

In the last few days I've been doing a lot of reading of various blogs regarding user-interface design, icon designs, and other such material to do with creating GUI's.
I think I've read all of the articles on: http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/pages/table-of-contents.aspx, which describes the design and implementation of the Ribbon in MS Office 2007.

I've not actually used the ribbon, and I'm not saying I agree with all their decisions or the visual style, but I found the process fascinating to read up on.

Accordingly, I've done some actual proper design work (GASP!) using Excel as a kind of graph paper + colours + lines + fonts.

I came up with 6 major design themes using the GUI elements in Pixe. I then analysed these and came up with one that from a user interface point of view should require less mouse movements and less precision to reach the major elements as well as visually being more organised and lined up. This was actually quite different from the first decision I mocked up, but has proven the best choice (IMHO).

I've now been mocking up a design to fix some of the minor elements a bit more. But I will now start the process of altering the design layout in Pixe to fit the new design. In some ways it won't be too different, in other aspects it will be different than what I've shown before. Overall, I think it will help in terms of productivity and the 'feel'.

[blumunkee]

Make sure to read this as well. It's a good read, although I personally think balance and convenience should have (slightly) higher precedence over minimalism.

Are you left handed? I was wondering because all the panels are docked on the left side of the canvas. I'm right handed and it feels more comfortable having my UI to the right.

Also, I won't beat around the bush. The 4 pen colors thing is a Bad idea. With a capital b.

[Souly]

I like to collaborate and so from time to time I use OpenCanvas, a CG art program with multi-user connection
And doing a google search I was un-able to find a decent open canvas type program specifically for pixel art.
The problem I had with open canvas was you were just each given a different layer, you were un-able to erase or really properly add onto the other person's sketch.
If that makes sense.

Anyways, I'm proposing the idea for multi-user connection on one canvas if at all possible.

Obviously you're still working on the pixel aspect of it, but yeah just an idea.
Not even sure if it's already been mentioned can't seem to find anything by searching the thread.

[happymonster]

Some good points in the document you posted blumunkee.. Though I wish it was more modern, and not just concerning text based window systems.

Can I ask why people think the 4 pens idea is a bad idea? The specific reasons? Do people think it will be too confusing, or take up too much space?
It is optional if people use the extra two pens at the moment, and I believe MSPaint lets you use a 3rd pen?

Souly: It's a good idea, but that is beyond by abilities at the moment I'm afraid!

[happymonster]

Forgot to say, I am right handed. I know Dpaint had a right sided interface, but since then programs like Photoshop, PSP, Promotion, feature a left sided interface, so I've got used to those.

I'll add a right sided interface option anyway..

[Ai]

Can I ask why people think the 4 pens idea is a bad idea? The specific reasons? Do people think it will be too confusing, or take up too much space?
It is optional if people use the extra two pens at the moment, and I believe MSPaint lets you use a 3rd pen?

MSpaint is better not mentioned in a thread about a serious pixeling/graphics program IMO.

my reasons:
* yes, it's confusing
* we have two hands, in which we could hold one drawing implement each; a pencil has two ends, one for drawing and one for erasing. The metaphor breaks down when the number of pens > 2.
  'swap colors' becomes meaningless, and the equivalent 'cycle colors' is not anywhere near as obvious in it's effects.
* the lack of a good metaphor makes learning harder.
* it would probably take up too much space, in the sense that it would be using space but the user would not utilize or refer to it.

Of course I think new experiments are good, and it's true that I'm simply used to 2 colors; so I think it would be most reasonable to allow the user to enable 4 pens rather than 2, and have this switched off by default (presumably the 2 colors would expand to fill the freed space, which would be appreciated as the current 4 are too small imo)

[happymonster]

MSpaint is better not mentioned in a thread about a serious pixeling/graphics program IMO.

Well, that's an emotional argument, rather than a logical one..

I don't really know if the two pens - two hands analogy is correct. It seems more a case to me that most mice had two buttons..
It just seems that someone who is constantly switching from one colour to another and back again (either via a palette or an eyedropper) could benefit from a 3rd or 4th pen.

[blumunkee]

Photoshop, Promotion, and it's ilk have a thin bar on the left of the canvas for selecting tools. All the other controls get docked to the right of the canvas. I consider that a right handed interface.

My gripes with 4 pen colors boils down to 2 issues:

1. It's foreign – If I pick up any other graphics app I can reasonably expect it to have two colors. When I saw the screenshot of the UI, I was confused. I had to read your posts for an explanation of their use, and I had to reason out how and why I would need them. All in all I found it non-obvious and non-intuitive. Not offensively so, mind you. But it still felt foreign.

2. It's a solution to a non-problem – I have never once say down in front of a pixel editor and felt the need for more pen colors. I think this mirrors the issues the Office developers faced when they sat down and made guesses about what the average user wants and doesn't want, without any actual feedback from the users. It seems like a feature that in theory sounds like it would be useful, but in practice is not useful, or is even detrimental.

My ideal workflow is one which has a quickly accessible color picker and key bindings to increment and decrement the current palette index. This makes it easy to both grab an existing color from the canvas and to move through my organized color ramps without having to mouse over to the palette. The only time I need to defer to the actual palette is when I am modifying colors or reorganizing my palette. It is of utmost importance that I can navigate about my palette while keeping my cursor, and my concentration within the canvas, not in the ancillary panels.

Have said that, if you really think 4 pen colors will be a genuine boon to pixel artists, implement it. I'll be the first to happily admit that I was wrong if it improves my art.

[happymonster]

I understand what you are saying, but it is something that I have found myself wishing for, even if other people haven't necessarily!

I will see how well it works in tests. Perhaps just a 3rd color pen activated using a keyboard key instead of a mouse button would be better. As with everything else here, it develops rather organically as you can see..

[Akira]

I often feel the need for more pen colours. Often my sketches start off as three or four colour pieces to lay volumes down and I can't help thinking that it'd be nice if i had a hot key to use another pen colour. When i'm in promotion this problem is solved by the colour cycling hotkeys but the 4 pen system definitely interests me.

[happymonster]

Ah! So it's not just me then..

[surt]

While I don't personally see four unrelated pen colours as tremendously useful, I don't see them as a problem. If I don't want to use them, I won't.

If they were paired then they could be useful for specifying a dither colour pair or a ramp for each mouse button.

Could also be nice to have line, fill and transparent always at hand.

I'd like to see them be more than just colours: a full tool-context where you can specify separate tool, brush, dither pattern, etc. for each button-modifier combo.

[ilkke]

Hi, just discovered this thread to my delight!

Of all the programs that can be used for pixelling on PC (I started on Amiga), I found out that every single one is lacking perhaps an important feature or two, so your project is more than welcome

I have yet to read through all the suggestions by other people, but as a general rule, I believe you should add keyboard shortcuts (configurable if possible) to as many functions as possible, and also feel free to include anything that you feel belongs in the program. What's the use of making a new program if it's not different than the others? Also, when some people find a feature useful, and others object to it, perhaps it's best practice to make it optional, or configurable, or just easy to ignore.

Using four-color controversy as an example:
People are used to pressing 'x' to swap bf and fg color in PhotoShop. If you implement the 4 color thingie, then you'd either need more keys as shortcuts (wither 2 for next & prev, or 4 for each color having it's own), or more keypresses (of a single key) to to get back to the first color. Having 4 keys is perhaps quickest but maybe not economic. None of this would break the standard workflow if you simply make RMB paint with bg color and LMB paint with whatever color is selected. I personally do not imagine the feature to be useful as I use '[' and ']' to move through the palette quickly (which works well if you use few colors), but it wouldn't hurt me unless I had to go out of my way to achieve what I'm already used to.

My workflow relies on several functions that I find a must in a paint program, but I'd prefer to wait until the program starts to flesh out instead of bombarding you with feature ideas.

Good luck with it and I hope to see a test version soon!

P.S.
Oh, yes, make the icons for GUI editable!

[happymonster]

Thanks for the support!

I've been a little busy with friend's birthdays lately, but have also been doing some design work and ideas.

Cheers!

[happymonster]

I've also been working on other cool graphical techniques which will find their way into Pixe. I love experimenting with graphics technology, even if I can't explain how they work in proper mathmatical terminology.

[happymonster]

Frustratingly I've been feeling pretty tired this week. Maybe it's not helping that we've had a lot of snow these past few days.
As a consequence I've not really been upto doing much the last few days.

Hopefully I will feel more awake soon!!

[happymonster]

Don't worry, this is not dead!

I've been to a party this weekend and have valentine's day to celebrate with my girlfriend next weekend (so presents to buy!). I've also been working on a test program for a cool idea which works fabulously well and will be put into Pixe.

[happymonster]

Ok, here is the new design for Pixe when clipped to be running in a 1024 x 768 mode (obviously this will be a little less normally due to the taskbar/window title):




As you can see, the main tools are now at the top, to the right of the palette. Why is this?
Well, this design is based on a theory of minimising mouse movements. Apart from the canvas the most important parts of the GUI are the palette and the main tools (IMHO), with brush preset sizes close behind. So, I reasoned that a good design would minimise the amount of mouse movement necessary between those elements. Accordingly I created 6 variant designs using Excel (as a kind of coloured graph paper designs) and analysed each one in terms of distance, feel, visual look and how much you had to overlap elements to reach gui parts.

Let me explain that last part again.. In the old design you had to move over the other tool icons to select draw, line, etc.. Not only that, but the commonest tools where both the furthest away and the elements where you had to 'reach past' other tools to select them the most. Psychologically I think this does have a negative effect compared to designs where you don't have to do that and it seems easier to select tools / buttons.

I tried making the tools vertically orientated to the right of the tool options section. Despite the narrowness this seemed to work ok, except that you had to move some distance to get from the top colour to the bottom tool. If I put the tools to the right of the colours then you have to overreach for every colour which seems wrong.

So, in the end although I would have liked the tools and tool options to be closer, this seems (currently) the best answer. The palette, tools and brushes are all oriented around the top-left corner so reducing the mouse movement and overreach. The most important tools are now at the bottom of the 8 x 2 tool panel (closest to the image), while the most important brushes are closest to the image too.

Also in terms of style, you can see I have refined the 3D look somewhat and reduced the strenght of the coloured title 'bars', while adding more text titles to add both space and clarity. The icons are now very slightly softer/rounded and I've added (what will be an optional) tool highlighing effect to indicate which tool option panel is open.
Also, you now have an optional x1, x2 or x3 image view in the palette when it's over the image, which helps with drawing.

The top right of the panel under layers will feature both layers, layer tools and multiple effect/paint/filter slots (at least 10) which you can use to store paint modes, etc..
 
The palette and options are not done, so this is something I will go back to, but I think I will have a less cluttered version than previously and put some of the options in a seperate colour options panel.

[surt]

Personally I'm more in favour of the GUI using more horizontal screen space and less vertical screen space, as I prefer my view port nearer square, and what with widescreens and all. Being able to turn off the panel titlebars should alleviate this some (and maybe option to drop the infobar down to a panel?). On the plus side the current layout allows for larger layer previews.

Tools are something I particularly like having vertical, a one-deep bar at the screen edge is my preference (that's how I have things setup in GGale). You could always use the opposite edge to the main panels.

Having the image preview share space with the palette/colour selector is a neat idea. Maybe the option to toggle it between view centred and cursor centred, so it can double as a GGale/Neopaint-style loupe.

[happymonster]

The new gui makes it easier to move the various sections of the gui around (by editing text files). So yes, you could have what you suggest.

No feedback from anyone else?

[blumunkee]

Interesting. You've basically oriented your workflow to the top left of the screen. Personally I think bottom right is where most of the action is, but that may be because most paint programs laid out in the same traditional manner.

Having used Grafx2 over the past 2 weeks, I've come to appreciate the value of using non-persistent GUI elements to good effect. By that I mean there parts of the GUI that only pop up when needed. A good example are the brushes. In Grafx2 they are accessed by clicking on a small rectangular icon. The resulting popup shows a window with a large selection of brush shapes and sizes. I'd easily trade the inelegance of clicking through two events—selecting the brush icon and then selecting the brush size—over Pixe's approach, simply because it allows a much broader range of brush selection.

I think your program could benefit by allowing for more easily expandable non-persistent functionality. The brush sizes are an example, and I think the tool options would save a bunch of screen real estate if they where made to expand when needed. That would leave room for things that should be persistent, like the preview, palette, and layers.

[happymonster]

Maybe I only have experience of the older versions, but I thought Promotion, PSP and Photoshop all had a default top-left workflow? Anyway, you will be able to change things a bit.

I have to disagree with using only one icon button to select a brush. It's something that I do quite commonly (selecting different preset brushes) and so I don't want to have to click on an icon to do such a common task. I will probably make the largest brush (the one on the far left) a drop down arrow which leads to more brush size / shape options (as before).

The tool options will need all that space when I implement all the ideas I have for them, so it seems cleaner for me to have panels (like preview) not be hidden when options are open but you move over the canvas.

So Palette / Preview will be semi-persistant and layers will be persistant.


I think we are discussing things in a rather circular manner though, no one approach will please everyone.

[happymonster]

I'm having some difficult lately..

Doing Pixe is just a hobby for me, but it does give me a very nice feeling to know that others use it. Despite difficulties it has really improved immensely due to feedback from people here.

Unfortunately, I've been getting bogged down in making the GUI flexible enough to suit everyone and trying to come up with a default look that both myself and the majority like. As such I've not actually made much progress on the actual functionality while I've been floundering around trying to come up with a specific focus.

I always have the difficulty of where to draw the line between my own desires and that of other users. I think if I just do what other people want I will lose motivation. I mentioned this before with the GUI, but sadly I don't think people really heard what I said. I don't want to give up on Pixe, so I think the best direction is to make Pixe more what I want for a while (and that will probably be a bit less traditional, a bit more experimental, as that is the kind of things I like to play with).

I've just been getting frustrated with trying to make it good enough without any other real help besides opposing ideas and suggestions. Curse thee Adobe and your design teams!

So I'm going to have to pull back from implementing everyone else idea's for now and focus on my own design here.. As a consequence probably not many of you will like the way it will develop, but as I have said before, on my own I can't do the perfect Paint Program for everyone, it's just too ambitious.

But, this way Pixe will still develop..

[Mathias]

Hey man, dont' let it get to you too much. I'd highly recommend pulling back a little if you think this endeavor is too great in scope. Take a hiatus if need be. I know from personal experience that once I've worked for too long any one project, and the time spent is disproportionate to what the end-result is meant to be, I begin to hate the project and additional time spent on it is done begrudgingly because I hate to not finish something. I'm sure most are like that with pretty much anything, including you with this.

I didn't take you seriously at first. When you initially posted about creating your own specialized pixeling program, I thought 'yeah sure, this'll last for a few weeks . . .' But wow, look at you go! I have full confidence you'll have a finished release relatively soon. I think you've come to one of the best possible sites for feedback, so wise choice there  -BUT-  most of these guys are dedicated artists and don't understand your development process so I think you're wise again to have the discernment to know that their point of view most likely lacks the programming understanding you have and so the cascade of feature requests and disagreements is impossible to perfectly rectify.

You cannot please everyone all the time. So don't try. Unless you enjoy defeat. I think this is a life lesson applicable to everything. Why cram every perceivable feature into the first release? Keep your idea log running and plan expansions, new versions, however you to handle it, with additional features, but code your engine flexibly so as to allow for convenient integration later in the future. Who knows where this will go. It may eclipse Promotion and all the others.

My underlying point is a recommendation to you - Determine a goalmarker where you can cut off your alpha-phase and polish to something releasable, then implement richer features later.

(and to weigh in on the multiple colors thing, if it can be done smoothly, do it, why not? I like the concept)

[Jim16]

I like the design and feel to this. Now a must download!
I will see how this go's! This is probs a step up from Mspaint to the noobs on the internet so the more you do the more the new guys get to play with Like matias said, you do your own thing but make sure that its flexible in use. Actually as is is perfect for me and has all the available tools a basic pixel artist needs.

[happymonster]

Thanks Mathias and Jim!

Some good advice there! I do have a tendency to try to please everyone all the time in terms of designing games/programs, and clearly that's sometimes impossible.

I also got some other good advice from other people: Instead of focussing on photoshop, GIMP, and things like the GIMP redesign posts, think about what ProMotion and Graphics Gale do wrong as well of course think about what I want to see in Pixe.

[Mathias]

happymonster, where you at? pinging for progress . . .  Is there anything we here at pixelation can do for you?

[happymonster]

Hiya!

No, this is not dead. But I've had 3 things happen lately:

1. Spending more time at the weekends with my girlfriend.
2. Working on my own ideas rather than other peoples.
3. I recently brought a great netbook (Samsung NC10), which I want to use Pixe on. The lower resolution of the netbook (1024 x 600) means I've had to redo the interface to be more compact (while not too complicated) so that it works fine on both my main PC and the netbook.

I am still working on Pixe (albeit slowly).

[Ai]

Time for bumping! Any news for the last 5 months?

[happymonster]

I'm still working on Pixe (still slowly as well!)

 It now has partially implemented layers, but is not ready for public usage yet.

[Mathias]

Thanks for the update.

[happymonster]

Having to change the layer code as although it worked and was very powerful it was difficult to program for and conceptially to use. Now I'm replacing with a more traditional layer system (although a little bit more powerful I have to say).

The design and layout has also changed considerably since I last posted a picture. Part of this is due to buying a netbook which with a 1024 x 600 resolution meant that I had to change the GUI layout if I wanted to use Pixe on it. Also, I detect a general simplification in my design, moving away from having too much visible at once and just promoting the most commonly used aspects to the main screen, with eveything else tucked away in options.

So, here's the current design / screenshot, compact to fit in small screenmodes:

• Slimmer status text bar at the top (incorporating small pen colour indications in this screenshot).
• Palette underneath (still full size, with square swatches).
• Most common brush presents underneath. The leftmost one is for grabbed brushes, right clicking will let you select from multiple entries. Probably do the same with the presets to allow you to pick bigger sizes, etc..
• Drawing / most commonly used tools underneath the palette on the right (arrayed in the familiar vertical layout).
• Less commonly used options on the left
  
• Tool options panel (which changes for each selected tool) in the middle.
• Layers below, selectable with left mouse button, right mouse button for options (unless I change this idea..)

And an older screenshot showing the palette options for altering a single colour:

[Xelados Nafshir]

I am definitely looking forward to this app. It's stylish AND clean. Who could ask for more?

Do you plan on implementing color bit options? For instance being able to have 1-bit, 2-bit, 4, 8, 15, etc bit color? I think it would be very helpful, especially if people are pixeling for specific platform looks. For instance, every color handheld from Nintendo uses 15-bit color.

[happymonster]

Thanks. Are you refering to colour depth, i.e. 4 colour images, etc.. or colour palette range (512, 4096 colour palette)?

[ptoing]

He is referring to the latter. as in 9-bit (RGB 333) like Atari ST or the Genesis have.
In Promotion you can set anything from 2222 to 8888 RGBA, which is very helpful.

[32]

It may have been mentioned already but it would be nice if the colour sliders updated with your current selection, it makes colour picking a helluva lot faster if I can see what colour I'm getting before I move the sliders. I doubt I could reliably use RGB sliders without it.

I'm liking the look of this so far and I'll definitely give it a go when you release it.

[happymonster]

Ah I see.. Well maybe in the future, I'm not going to add things like that unless the basics are all done.

32: They do, that's just an old shot.

[surt]

Looking very nice, though I'm not sure about the tools being split in half by the options like that.

Any chance of another build to play with? 

[happymonster]

Not quite yet. Parts are still not-working due to removing the old layer code. I'm restoring functionality with the new code, but it's not ready for a demo yet.

[happymonster]

What do people think about paint mode / effects using something like this:

On the icon
----------------

Left click: Select for painting
Right click: Apply to the whole image (i.e. as a fullscreen filter)
Middle click / other key: Apply to the whole of the current user selected brush

I'm trying to see the best way to do this without duplicating too many icons / panels?

[happymonster]

I've been adding some more paint modes (hence my earlier question). So far I've got working:

Paint, Replace (replace pen colour 0 in image, with pen colour 1), Swap (swaps pen colours in image), Outline, Halftone and Noise (Like an airbrush but moves pixels around a little rather than adding new colour).

These all work for all drawing primitives by the way.

[Helm]

Also don't forget to put a thing like, double clicking in replace mode replaces all pixels of color A with color B. Optionally also removes the redundant index and remaps palette.

[happymonster]

Helm: Replace mode already replaces pixels of color A with colour B, you would have to right click to apply the paint mode to the whole image (in my current plans).
The colour index part is a good idea, but probably would be better as a seperate palette 'tidy / clean up' icon. This isn't something I am focussing on at the moment though.

I'm getting the undo/redo system working again at the moment.

[happymonster]

Ok, undo/redo seems to be working..

I've also got the first version of the PXE file format (layer supporting) implemented with load & save. Still need to add in full layer support though and link that in with the saving.

I think my priorities have been undo/redo, load/save, and then get grabbed brushes working again with the new internal layer/image format. After that I can start to fix the bugs that will have crept in and see how usable it is.

[BlackArmada]

when is a new executable verson going to be available?

[happymonster]

I still need to fix brushes, flood fill and some bugs first. But definately before christmas!