my little world, monsters! ... [please C&C]

[Dr D]

As the wings push down, the air will push against the wings, mainly the tips, as they're pointed down the most, and force them back up, at least a little.

[Gil]

The problem is that it moves inversely. Instead of going up slowly, then falling down, it seems to slowly fall down, then shoot up when he flaps. Try looking up some references? I might be wrong entirely, that's what my instinct tells me...

[PypeBros]

-->
<-- possible alternative colors, 'blackcurrant' look.

reference video <-- which i wasn't using when pixeling.

Okay, so the whole purpose of the wings-flapping of bats is to maintain the gravity center still in this video, just like you'd have your body moving at constant speed when you walk because that's what minimize the energy you spend. If the bat had to "lift up" at every flap, it would be constantly fighting against its own inertia ...

I tried to convey the idea that the berry-bat is too heavy to fly efficiently in my animation. Below, an overview of "monster design" sketch for the fruitbat that should detail what i have in mind.


Therefore, i made the flap-down fast so that it gets more energy and "push" the berry upwards, at the expense of a slower flap-up (wings recoil ?) during which the berry falls down a little.

I'll give it a try with a "stable" bat, but i have the feeling that it'll be less interesting...

[Willows]

People are saying you need some wavey-type-action for your wings.

Take a piece of paper, right now, and "flap" it downward. The part of the paper that you're actively gripping will get pushed the furthest, and every other bit of the paper will follow the action of where you're gripping. The further the distance from the origin of force (grip point), the "slower" it will trail the main force.

The same goes for a bat (or ball)'s wing's. When a bat flaps its wings, most of the force is applied through the shoulder (or seems to be! I could be mistaken ) and as such, the bits of the wing furthest from the origin of force (in this case the shoulder) will move down at a slower rate, and thus appear to be higher.

In doing this, things form "C-curves" that instantly tell us where the force is, how much force there is, and where it is going.

The biggest problem with your ball, at the moment, is that its wings are always in a C-curve that suggests they're moving UP, and never acheive a C-curve that suggests they're moving DOWN. Confused?

C    <---- that would be a C-curve suggesting force being applied leftwardly
)     <---- that would be a C-curve suggesting force being applied toward the right.

The top curve is suggesting more force is being applied to it than the bottom curve, because of its more extreme... curve. There aren't up and down brackets, far as I know, so I hope that's clear enough! Your wing's C-curves are always suggesting UPWARD motion, and you need to imply DOWNWARD force in order to show that the body of the beast is being held UP by this DOWNWARD pressure. IF the only pressure ever seen is UPWARD, it'll sooner be seen as flying/swimming downward, rather than flying upward.

If that's not enough, I suggest you do some researchy bits on "Anticipation, Action, and Reaction" and "overlapping action / wave action" for a couple core things on animation and animating.

[zeid]

really sketchy but:

Consider using some animation techniques for creating a sense of termoil and speed in the characters movement seeing as they are under a grave deal of strain.  Whilst you are giving it bat wings make note that insects tend to have a greater body to wing ratio then these larger animals and so may also serve as good references.  This edit is just meant for ideas, I would also reconsider the face as from what you said he should be under strain not angry.

[PypeBros]

thanks for your tips. I have emergencies right now, but i'll let you see what it became by mid-week, hopefully.

[thedaemon]

I made a little picture to explain the wings visually.  Really I would use 7 frames of animation if you want it real clear. But whichever you feel like doing. I hope this helps. Remember to keep the wings mostly up at the top of arc and down at the bottom of arc. You don't want to draw a wing in the middle. It will be bad spacing for a flap.

[PypeBros]

thanks willow and thedaemon for your patient explanations. And thanks zeid for your sketch.

I'll have to dig for more videos of flying bat, but i have to disagree with your proposal of "full force down" reverse-flapped wings. I agree that a sheet of paper would do that but unlike a wing, a sheet of paper don't make me fly. Afaik, what makes something fly is either
- speed (like with a plane) and difference of pressure between the two sides of a wing
- wing movement "catching" the air within the wing and "pushing the air down" to lift up.

If you get a look at this video of goose taking off, you'll notice that only the very end of the wings (that is just a feather's length where feathers are separated for direction control, not for lifting up) bends like a sheet of paper. The rest of the wing follows the angle of the bone, and much like i cannot scratch my back with my hand because of how my elbow is made, a goose cannot really appear as the frame #2 of thedaemon's picture.

Depending on which video i watch, it seems that bats do even smaller (but much faster) flaps than those goose, but they still won't show as on frame #2, which i see completely "non-batty".

[thedaemon]

But you are doing an animation of a cartoon bat with limited frames. You want the clearest read. You want the viewer to know that he is flying. In animation terms this is called "breaking the joints". Check out Richard Williams book for more information on this technique. But again, it's all up to you. I'm just suggesting a clear read of the flapping. It may not be accurate, but neither is your drawing of a bat. Since you have a cartoony style I assumed you wanted a cartoony feel to animation and didn't want to animate 12 frames of animation for a smooth realistic bat wing flap.  Here is a post about breaking joints that should clear some things up.(with pages from Richard Williams' book.)http://www.michaelspornanimation.com/splog/?p=1331

[Willows]

I'll have to dig for more videos of flying bat, but i have to disagree with your proposal of "full force down" reverse-flapped wings. I agree that a sheet of paper would do that but unlike a wing, a sheet of paper don't make me fly.

A paper reacts the same as feathers or a leathery bat wing would, just to a different degree because of the difference in rigidity. I also do not believe a bat's wing would bend as far as a piece of paper, because I know the bat's wings are reinforced by bone, which doesn't bend like paper

Even though it won't bend like paper, that doesn't mean it doesn't bend at all.



Hah, created a whole lot of new problems in that hasty edit, but I believe it looks like it's flying now, if not a bit erratically.

[PypeBros]

A few more attempts. I can't find the proper way to do it, obviously.

-- --

[xhunterko]

Okay, here we go.



I tried to get the curved wing thing going on here. I think this is more or less what they're talking about here. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think the perspective's right but I think you'll get the general idea though. This is only half the animation though. The other is making the wings go down. It should just be a simple copy and flip job though. What I basically did was animate the line and change it to a curve. This page might serve as a good reference.

http://tkool.jp/fancontents/lecture/graphic/dot/2nen/2_05.html

Yeah, it's in Japanese. But the main point should just be understood by looking at the pictures.

Sorry if its a bit fast. Darn GIMP and Firefox.

[thedaemon]

Ok, a quick edit to show you what I meant. Also slowed it down a bit.

[PypeBros]

@daemon : thanks for the edit and the link. I have obviously did it the wrong way.
<-- earlier animation step-by-step

Esp, i have "broadened" the wings on frame too (in a motion blur attempt), but it doesn't work well at all with wings as it works with feets :/
I also have the feeling that i snapshot'd the wrong picture on frame #3. Probably by this time, the wings should start folding again, and no longer be "broken" by the effort.

I note, however, that the technique mentionned on michael's splog is merely a way to "flatten" what happens in reality. If i throw a ball, i'll indeed have my elbow moving first and then my forearm gaining speed by un-bending and finally give it the maximum speed with a wirst twist. No joint break, but i'm moving my arm in 3D using other rotation axes than i used to "charge" my throw.

[PypeBros]

edit on the "berry bat"
--

tried to make it look more like a berry, experimenting color themes for the wings (that might be its leaves), used "speed lines" rather than broken wings in frame #2. Seems to be the best compromise so far... Shouldn't have anti-aliased the eye that way: it makes it look less angry ...

references: http://www.flickr.com/photos/24070952@N07/2898208206/ (plus some illustration on my favorite fruits drink which doesn't show up online )

[PypeBros]

-
^ ingame image of the new demo

(please ignore red background, just a bug). Any suggestion on the cave/ground tiles ?

[Mathias]

Aha, actual mockupry.  No comments? I have some quick comments - the walkable ground is almost indiscernable as walkable when in front of the rockface tiles, case in the point: left sceenshot, bottom middle platforms. I almost missed them  entirely. They appear to bump out from the rockface at all. That's a huge problem. The grass coloring doesn't mesh well all with surrounding colors; looks neon. It think your greens in general need toning down. And those rockface tiles need more variation tiles to break up that monotonous repetition, yow.

[PypeBros]

Thanks for the tips, Mathias. I'll try and address these, and hope the greens will be more suited to the "real" background that is coming, otherwise, i'll tone them down.
As for the "bottom middle platforms", they are not actually platforms and the rockface is really a "concrete wall". I hope to use them as 'cheap' way to introduce variation or possibly secret passages.

But you're not the only one to find it confusing whether a given item is wall, platform, secret area, etc. so i will have to review this all.

the story goes on here