my little world, monsters! ... [please C&C]

[ndchristie]

I'd urge you to look into ways that allow you to make platforms without looking stiff.  This is the purpose of good graphics - to create structure without being restricted by it.

sloppy 5-minute attempt :

[PypeBros]

so if i interprete your sketch correctly, you suggest things like a tree that starts blocking (high contrast) and is inclined backwards so that it's no longer a wall after a certain height, right ? and it has a branch pointing towards the screen between the two (which is a platform in the yellow-box).

It also had two branches on the left and the right (red boxes) that are walkable platform, but the highest branch is moving backwards too (low contrast) so it's not walkable by the player (it could be a booby trap, though).

Yeah, that could be interesting things. I don't know if i'm capable of drawing something like that yet, but it is definitely a good idea. (somehow reminds me of flashback's jungle

[PypeBros]

--
I don't have my "rayman-like" animator yet, so i'm stuck to "regular" animation in a 16x16 grid, but anyway. I had fun making Bilou walk and roll (on floor, or maybe spin in the air ... not yet decided).

Any comment on that ?

[zeid]

Sorry for such a late reply. No edit this time either I am afraid.

@zeid: kinda surprised that you actually did an edit with "fg darker than bg" here and another with "bg darker than bg" there...

Well I never said that a light background was wrong or a darker one was wrong. It is all completely dependent on the mood you are trying to set, with the trees and colouring you provided I assumed you wanted a lighter background. Typically when someone wants to create a happy upbeat forest they choose a brighter sunny background where as the jungle scene I made the edit for has canopies blocking out much of the light and creating a completely different atmosphere and environment.

You can create the game environment however you please but I do think that the colours you have now need some reworking at this stage. The foreground is probably in more fault then the background as it doesn't currently have as wide a range of highlights and shadows as it should, in the recent edit when you add the darker blue shadows to the trees, the readibility level of the scene improves. You pretty much need to apply this kind of effect on the entire forground (including characters). The higher the range is in the foreground, the more range you can put into the background. This will make ndchristie's suggestion of making things look more organic and natural a lot easier.

The most important reason we make the background more washed out isn't because it is more realistic, it is usually more of a readibility thing then anything else. Other such ways include increased/decreased luminosity and increased/decreased detail. You can also use +/- hue. However if you are hoping for a wide variety of colours as oppose to a pong game you are going to want a combination of these things.

I think the walking animation looks nice, you should research a little "sub-pixeling". Particularly sub-pixel techniques concerned with animation. That way you can get some of the motions such as that of the eyes to look smoother.

[PypeBros]

Sorry for such a late reply.

np

The higher the range is in the foreground, the more range you can put into the background. This will make ndchristie's suggestion of making things look more organic and natural a lot easier.

Hmm. Haven't thought about it that way so far. Thanks for pointing that out.

I think the walking animation looks nice, you should research a little "sub-pixeling". Particularly sub-pixel techniques concerned with animation. That way you can get some of the motions such as that of the eyes to look smoother.

Will try that. And i will try hard to avoid introducing more colours while doing so

[PypeBros]

Here comes a baddie for that little forest: the "Appleman". I tried to do some sub-pixel animation on him, but i'm not sure i completely understood the technique.


(edit: okay. server is back. images too )

[PypeBros]

rhaa! i can't decide which one i should pick:
- vs - - vs - - vs -

I tried green feet too, but that's really not working at all.

[artisan]

haha i wouldnt mention subpixel with the rant thats going on in my thread.. ..

the animation looks good from what i can see i think it conveys character maybe more then the main guy... i would say avoid the orange foot cause it makes it look like a giant tomato to me i would go with the brown, but both shades look alright to me.

you seem to have some unescesary greens on the leaf.. i think it would look the same and just as good if the leaf was all one colour.

[AdamAtomic]

I vote #2.  Also, nice job   You're definitely improving!

[PypeBros]

I vote #2.  Also, nice job   You're definitely improving!

Thanks. This place is a rather nice good "school", i must say. With a bit more lines of code, i guess i'll be soon ready to pixel out of those 16x16 boxes ...

i think it would look the same and just as good if the leaf was all one colour.

My initial intent was to have the leave reinforcing the tilt, sometimes showing its upper side (shinier), sometimes showing its lower side (darker). maybe i should extend the range of that green ramp (?) ...

the animation looks good from what i can see i think it conveys character maybe more then the main guy...

Somehow, i find it easier to give character to baddies/npc than to my hero. The hero is not allowed to express excessive aggressivity or fear (since he's the good guy) ...

When using it in "comic", it's easier to involve the reader in the difficulty of the path taken, but it's not quite practical to have in a game.
--

Is the player feeling at risk ? or is he feeling all-mighty and over-comfident towards the danger, seconded by the Goddess of Luck ? And should that reflect to the hero's appearance ? I'm mostly a Zelda/Mario player, where the hero barely has personnality so that he's just a virtual avatar of the player in the video game, though it's clearly not the case in Sonic whose own character is more defined.

Maybe i should get my hand back on that "10 questions to define your (theatre) character" list and figure out more "who is Bilou". Funny enough, these last years, i mostly refined his sidekick Bouli (how original, i know)

[PypeBros]

--
i didn't managed to give more character (nor do sub-pixel afterwards) on the "walk" animation, but i've got a "running" animation that is working rather good. I allowed Bilou to frown while running -- after all, if he runs, that's certainly not for the pleasure in the game, and that probably means time for exploration has gone.

Please excuse the WIPness of hands and feets on the run. Shading will come next.

[Souly]

Your little ball sure has come a long way.
The run animation is good, my only problem with it would be the eyes.
The right eye also got a pixel smaller then the left eye, looks weird.

[Dusty]

A little late, but I first noticed ND's post about platforms not looking stiff... I think an easy way to accomplish this is by having the platforms drawn OVER the player. You see this in games like Metroid and Cave Story. It allows you to make the platforms dynamically shaped, yet still look natural when the player runs straight across a slightly hilly area because the player is behind it.

If your tree platforms were draw above the player, it would give the impression the player is standing on branches inside the leaves, instead of the leaves themselves... allowing you to make the leaves shape out differently than just a straight platform.

[LoTekK]

For such simple character designs, these have a whole lot of charm. I adore the run animation, especially the focused expression on his face. Enemy-wise, I'd agree the second one looks the best. There's enough contrast on the feet to separate them visually without being obnoxious.

[PypeBros]

The right eye also got a pixel smaller then the left eye, looks weird.

point taken. i tried to fix that (though with sub-pixels, you'll barely notice it). And i think i'll need an intermediate shade if i want to keep the eye outline...
-->

i'm also working out some transition between the idle stance and running, and unifying some details (outline, shadows) or it almost look like i swapped character between the two animations.

I think an easy way to accomplish this is by having the platforms drawn OVER the player.

Yeah, that was my intent, though i'm having hard time to figure out how i'm going to do that (i have 2 hardware layers for the foreground, but sometimes Bilou need to stand in front of both, and sometimes between the two).

[PypeBros]

-->
i've got troubles with my conversion scripts, but here comes my latest version. higher contrast on fg leaves, better roots (hopefully, though i seem to have messed them up in the process), real "top" branches, and a place for the Wise Owl to rest between two pieces of advice ...

(*edit*) hmm. There start to be a sort of "vertical band of meaningless noise" in my tree which doesn't please me. I shall re-work that.

[zeid]

I tried to do some sub-pixel animation on him, but i'm not sure i completely understood the technique.

Well I think you nailed it pretty well.

I think the main issues hurting your piece are colour, contrast and volumes.
A quick volume sample

[PypeBros]

Woaw ! Did you managed to do that with my own colors only ?
Clearly, i'm working 'too small'. I eliminated the lightest shade almost everywhere because it just introduced disturbing pixel and you managed to make it the color of choice for larger details ... Somehow that's natural. Only big disturbance can bring sufficient large "highlight" areas so that they send us enough light. Since i was only doing small ripples, i had no chance to have those required.

I definitely love the look it gives. I'll do my best to manage to get something alike that is tilable too.

[zeid]

Well I cheated and added an extra shade, but it was a 5 minute edit so I have no doubt you can get practically the same effect whilst keeping the original colour count.

[PypeBros]

-->
wow. the 32x32 edition mode was really helpful here. what a relief to get beyond that 16x16 limitation with the DS' stylus.

Lightest shade has been added afterwards, since with my initial palette only, the result was somehow "washed out" and still lacked contrast (see below), though except around the hole, i've got the feeling i haven't mastered those new light yet... maybe placing them wrong ? the branch will need to be re-done, too. it's really not working this way.


(* aftertoughtedit *) i've got the horrible feeling that my tree should be twisted the other way, given the position of its roots

[PypeBros]

=>

did a dirst try at mixing two depth of trees on a single one as ndchristie suggested ... don't know if that looks convincing to you ... that means "much work still needed" to me

[Arachne]

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but I think you really need to look into how to shade cylindrical or round objects. Also, leaves! Think of these clusters as a pile of disks. Make them more fragmented. Look at some reference if you're not sure of how to place them or shade them.



Hope that helps!

[PypeBros]

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but I think you really need to look into how to shade cylindrical or round objects.

You mean i haven't been frank enough in how dark the tree gets on the edges, i guess ... i'll try to fix that.
Or is e.g. the big branch of the hollow tree flawed too ?


(*edit*) i re-did the trunk focussing on volume only, in a rush, with coarse tools.
Is that proper interpretation of cylindrical shading to your eyes, or am i really to dig for tutorials?

Also, leaves! Think of these clusters as a pile of disks. Make them more fragmented. Look at some reference if you're not sure of how to place them or shade them.

Hope that helps!

Given how great it looks, i hope it'll help. I initially did studied the "minish cap" style of leaves, which i unfortunately wasn't able to reuse. I came with the current buch of very small and dense leaves as a refined version of those clumsy bunch of leaves with "polka dots" seen in the background of the scene.

those you suggest are brilliant, although maybe a bit too "unstructured" to my tastes (e.g. if i manage to do something that approach that level of awesomeness, i'd love to make the player believe that the orientation of leaves comes naturally from an invisible network of branches, too)

how do you proceed to get something alike ? start with gross BG shape in dark and then add leaves layer after layer, casting shadow on the previous ones as you add new ones ?

Anyway, thanks for your edit and comments. If i manage to apply that, i'll have learned lots i guess

[Arachne]

What I did to learn this was that I went outside and started sketching clusters of leaves. I haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet, but I like that approach to it. Personally, I find it easier to stylize if I know how to draw something realistically.


(It didn't occur to me that you would be interested in how I did it, so I didn't save all the steps.) I just used the shapes you already had, started from the top with a few bright leaves, worked my way down, divided it up a bit with some darker areas in between and some leaves scattered around it.



As far as cylinders go, here's a rough, but hopefully somewhat accurate explanation. The angle of the surface decides how much light gets sent your way. Well, that and how reflective the surface is. Rough surface means that the light is dispersed more, so it's not quite as simple as this, but it'll give you a guide to where to place highlights and such. I hope this makes sense. Just flip the ray around the line that forms a 90 degree angle with the surface. You can apply this to spheres and flat surfaces too, and it can help you figure out reflections.


So for the tree, I'd do something more like this. It's a bit straight and smooth in places, and not quite right (it's a difficult shape, and you should try to master the basics before you start with the more complicated stuff), but I hope it shows what I mean. I'd tone down the divides between the three parts of the trunk and try to focus more on getting a cylindrical base shape, sort of.

Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on something. I'm better at showing than telling.

[PypeBros]

thanks for those extra explanation, and glad to see we have the same theory for cylindars (actually, i studied that kind of stuff from a theoretical point of view years ago when i was trying to code a phong-shading algorithm  ). It's just that i haven't mastered how to use them on a more complicated shape, nor have a very good intuition of "how large" each region should be considering my palette etc.

But i *want* it to be a somehow complicated shape as this is (imho) what will make it interesting to look at and to have in the game. I admit that trying to have trunks that tile so that i can make them any width was a mistake that made my former trunks look fairly flat, which did not really speak in my favor.

Well, enough words ...
Now to pixels and try to render

[AdamAtomic]

Something I found helpful when I was learning how to approach things a little more scientifically was to shade the big shapes FIRST, then go back and start working on surface stuff.  So for a tree, even if it had cool, gnarly detailing all over it, you would shade it like a big cylinder first.  Then, when you could see how the light was reacting to the basic, major shape of the object, you can go back and start working in the details, using more appropriate colors (and with a better sense of the overall lighting).

BTW you are making great progress, keep at it!

[PypeBros]

-->
Some newer leaves i made basing on Arachne's technique. There's not half as nice as hers, but they're already doing a nice job (imho). While posting, i realise the major trick that i haven't used : large areas of shadow near the center of the "bunch", which is due to a "hole" in the leaves through which we see the much-darker inners of the bunch. I only casted shadow on immediately neighbour leaves instead.

Yet, starting from the top and going downwards was a much better idea than working from lowest layer and moving up (which i tried to apply with my former "minish-cap-style-trees", but without much success).
I did the outline of the leaves with the darkest shade, then 'filling' the leaves and finally softened the outlines into correct shades (depending on the surrounding, whether they cast shadow, etc.)

[Helm]

What I think is most missing from your work is a good sense of contrast and value range. You have too much bright and nearbright colors and a huge range in the middle and then nothing towards the darker edge. You might be doing this to keep the game cartoony, but I think it's hurting the art very much. The relatively straight, full-saturation colors are not a good idea for any sort of game in my opinion.

Also I don't know how you pixel, but your color managment is wasteful. This was 28 colors in your version, it's 14 in mine, do you feel it's less or more colorful? A slight hue tint won't hurt your art nor will it make it instantly GRIMREALIST. In fact, it will make it *less* realistic and more surreal and fantastic if handled correctly.

[PypeBros]

I have to admit that i'm really struggling with those palette choices issues, and the low contrast of the DS screen doesn't help much here. I confess too that my palette has turned into a real mess, and that more lines of code are required before i can truly reorganize it.

I will investigate your edit further tonight to find out where were those 14 colours you removed. Obviously, the way i stick new art (here the leaves) onto existing mockup (e.g. trunk) lead to an accumulation of "obsolete" colours in some forgotten pixels ... I'll try to put more effort in the "cleanup/post-processing" phase when building mockups.

As you asked "do you feel it's less or more colorful?" ...
Clearly, no. Not less colorful. More interesting to watch, and shooting to my eyes "look, migh leaves and trunk highlights are not finished ! please give me some more polish"... while my version tended to "hide" this. I'm uncertain about the pure-black shadow for the tree in your edit, though.

[PypeBros]

still in the process of studying helm's colors and techniques. shadow on the trunk definitely plays a significant role too.
Left to right: helm's, mine after killing exceeding colors, wip color reshaping...

I figured out that i was using over-saturated shadows (which makes them not-so-shadows). Also tried to increase the hue-shifting in the leaves, highlights still being untouched. I'll give casted shadows a try when i'll have a bit more time.

[Helm]

It's a definite improvement. You took the idea and adapted it to your vision. I still think more shadow would work but eh, when I see it in the full mockup then we'll know.

[PypeBros]

<-- old -- run -- new -->

Last month have been heavy at work, but here's a new little walking animation for Bilou (yeah, i couldn't resist with all those great posts on animating walk/run cycles these last weeks). I hope the sub-pixel animation for the eyes do the trick here as they did for the "run" animation.

I guess i'll need to do something on the front feet as it's virtually impossible to see it over the grass right now. Maybe just shading will do it.

[Lazycow]

The leg-movements look good! Some minor things: Is his head turning while walking? Then his pupil should move too.
I would change the color of the green shoes. (because of the green grass)
If there is only one movemode, I would prefer the running animation, because it does look more dynamic.

More creatures please! 

[PypeBros]

The leg-movements look good! Some minor things: Is his head turning while walking? Then his pupil should move too.

The head/body moves, right. But since he's focusing on where he goes, his pupils compensate the head move (or at least, i figured out that if it was me, i wouldn't have my gaze go right and left while walking)

I would change the color of the green shoes. (because of the green grass)

That'd be the easy way out, but i want to keep the shoes green (he'll cross other lands too where there won't be grass). Instead, i'm trying to fix that with more contrast on the "shoes", but i'm not satisfied with my shading yet.
<- vs ->

If there is only one movemode, I would prefer the running animation, because it does look more dynamic.

Both walking and running will be available in game. Haven't decided which one would be the default one, though. I'm not that fan of SuperMario run that requires you to hold a button down during the whole game. Clearly running is more interesting, so i could go for the "prince of persia" approach and have a "keep quiet" button to avoid running rather than the other way round.

More creatures please! 

Heheh ... i'll try the 'fruitbat' tonight. Thanks for your support.

[PypeBros]

More creatures please! 

--

No fruitbat today. Instead, here comes the Boppin' Toadstool.
Beware his mad-high bops that will come every 4 bops, and better not touch it at all as it is poisonous.
Any crits/suggestions ? he's not as dynamic as i'd loved him to be :-/

Oh, and before you blame ... Yeah, he's a tribute to Commander Keen's mad mushroom and the decided to borrow colors from larwick (the pixler who drawn that haunted pumpkin and the mushroom-with-a-whole-universe-in-his-mouth).

edit: yes, he's indeed wearing sunglasses

[surt]

Mushroom needs contrast and lots of it.
Eye's don't much work for me. Are they meant to be sunglasses? If so you might want to add the temples to make it more clear, even if there's nothing for them to hold on to.
Some squash of the face during landing might give it more character.

[aregon810]

about the tree mabey this topic helps you a litle

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=7383.0

i had some great crits there

[PypeBros]

Mushroom needs contrast and lots of it.

---->

Better ? (just did a color edit ... or should i also review how many colors/how i used them ?)

Some squash of the face during landing might give it more character.

I'll try that tonight ...

[Dr D]

Still needs more contrast.. Really try to extend the rank of your ramps, make full use of what you can do.

[Boazadreal]

Ah I see Commander Keen influence seeping into the character design. Bouncing mushrooms, and yellow worms (almost look like the slugs).  Reading over the posts, your art is looking great. The biggest thing is picking a style and sticking to it, but not being afraid to tweak that style if need be.

[surt]

I played with it a bit much, but I think it should demo a better contrast level at least.
I removed the blue from the sunglasses as I think it only confused things. I think solid black works well enough, or a simple specular highlight as in the edit.

[Mathias]

Wow, sweet edit. It features a strong sideways lightsource, though. Whereas the levels have more of a diffused ambient lighting going on. The sprite's lighting has to make sense with the scenes lighting. What happens when Fungus Fred mirrors to bounce to the left instead of right? Seems a top-down primary light would fix that. Less dynamic, I know.

[PypeBros]

Huge thanks for the edit, surt. It is highly instructive. I love how you played with the highlights and shadows to define the volumes of Toady's face ... he almost looks like being modelled in clay and i like that.

That settles the next challenge for me.

@mathias: Bilou already has top-left lighting, as well as every other object in the tileset. I'm not afraid of giving "Fungus Fred" (don't know where you picked that name, but i damn' like it  ) a fully different sprite when he's facing right instead (Funky Fungus always bounce at the same place, he's not really moving in the level). The nintendo DS has plenty of VRAM and bandwidth to handle this and it will teach me not to be lazy when animating ^_^

(yesterday, i was mad at having lost my edits on Toady due to a stupid bug in SEDS... suddenly it doesn't matter anymore to me  )

[PypeBros]

I played with it a bit much, but I think it should demo a better contrast level at least.
I removed the blue from the sunglasses as I think it only confused things. I think solid black works well enough, or a simple specular highlight as in the edit.

-- vs --
Yeah. applying your advices make my former attempt laughable. The hat is intentionally kept spherical (to oppose the poisonous Funky Funghy against the cute and helpful Mushroom people that i still have to pixelate).
I also refrained from introducing "yellows" in the hat unlike what you did. Though now i'm hesitating on whether it was the right thing to do.

Bouncing mushrooms, and yellow worms (almost look like the slugs).

Well, more influenced by inchworms than slugs in first place, though they received a Worms 2 - inspired revision (like many other characters in the game ...). I swear i won't make them poop around ^_^

[Dr D]

Don't be afraid to play with the contrast on foreground objects and sprites, it makes them pop and stick out from the other things, which is probably what you want/need for them, and in that case, the hat could be a little brighter, if you want it to.

The specular thing on the sunglasses have right now aren't really reading as speculars, but more as just a dot, or a pixel, placed there, or possibly an eye that you can sorta-kinda see through them.

[PypeBros]

Don't be afraid to play with the contrast on foreground objects and sprites, it makes them pop and stick out from the other things, which is probably what you want/need for them, and in that case, the hat could be a little brighter, if you want it to.

The specular thing on the sunglasses have right now aren't really reading as speculars, but more as just a dot, or a pixel, placed there, or possibly an eye that you can sorta-kinda see through them.

Well, i'm unsure about how to bring brighter shades in the hat ... i'm already reaching 100% value, so i'm only left the option to desaturate, but then the highlight looks "greyish" to me 

[KittenMaster]

The hat's highlights have gotten better.  You seem too afraid to go to extremes when it comes to shades, especially when it comes to things such as your tree.

[PypeBros]

-->
<-- possible alternative colors, 'blackcurrant' look.
Here comes my 'fruitbat'. It is supposed to be a 'mutated', mono-eyed greenberry.
Please ignore the last berry, which is a "berrybug" attempt.

Does it look "juicy" enough ?

[Souly]

You need the tips to go up as he pulls down if that makes sense.

[PypeBros]

You need the tips to go up as he pulls down if that makes sense.

sorry, but that goes beyond my english skills 
can you rephrase that, possibly pointing frame number rather than "pulls down" ?

I tried to have the static point of the animation roughly 1/3 of the berry/wings fixation as i expect for wing'd guys: he 'lifts up' when flapping down (frame 1 -> frame 2) and falls a bit when preparing the next flap (all other frames).